Melanie Campbell Drane spoke with Mr. Perrin during his October 1997 visit to Tokyo. Her article on Chateau de Beaucastel appeared in The Daily Yomiuri. Following is the transcript of their talk.
Perrin: My feeling is that it will not be possible to produce any wine or food in the future with chemical products, because the consumers do not want to drink or eat products produced like that in the future. In fact, I believe that we are the precursors of a biological culture or way, and in five years in the world, people will no longer produce products in a way other than this.
My father [Jacques Perrin] was the first in France or maybe in Europe- 25 or 30 years ago-- to understand this need. My feeling is that the great men are the men who understand before the others. So in the wine business or agricultural business, we must move fast, very fast, because the consumers have the power, and they don't want to eat and drink chemicals...
I see an increasing trend toward organic practices. I think that everybody must go this way. The big challenge in my own business will be to increase my influence in my region. We try to make people understand that they must take this path; we try to make the wines in this way.....the challenge is to not use any chemical product in the wine or the fields.
For instance, at Vielle Ferme and at Beaucastel, we have a special process to heat the grapes and to not use any more So2 in the juice. Because So2 is a chemical product. My challenge is to find some physical process to replace the chemical process, in both the fields and in the wines.
Our vinification à chaud allows us to avoid the use of chemical sulfites. If you cut an apple and you leave it open for ten minutes, it begins to turn brown. It's the same with grape juice. You crush the grapes and you obtain juice and this juice rapidly oxidates through the air and you have to add some So2 to prevent that the juice turns brown. So2 is an anti-oxidant.
Drane: What is impact of vinification à chaud on the taste of the wine?
Perrin: First, in term of taste, you have more tannins in the wine, in the juice; we have more color, and we have more body because you know with the heating process, we kill the cells of the skins, and to make red wines we have to extract the inside of the cells. One bunch of grapes is 99% water-special, vegetal water, not mineral water, but it's water, it's nothing. 99% of the bunch is nothing. There is some sugar in it, but it's water with sugar. The red color, the flavors, the tannins, everything is in the skin, in the cells of the skin. So to make red wines, we have to [....] during the fermenting process, or before the fermenting process during the maceration, we have to kill the cells and when you kill them, they give the color, tannins and so on.
Drane: In 1991, Wine Spectator did a cover story about Chateauneuf de Pape, and it stated that, "Chateauneuf de Pape vintners do not preach the gospel of terroir." But at Ch. Beaucastel, you have a stated philosophy of placing the vine "in its universe"-- of wine as an expression of place. Are you an anomaly among wine producers in Chateauneuf de Pape in your extreme emphasis on terroir?
Perrin: Ah! That's good question. That's fantastic question! Yeah, okay. Hah! A very good question. Everybody talks about terroir now. Everybody wants to understand what is terroir. That's new. That's the reason your question is fantastic, is very interesting.
Terroir is historical. For instance in France, in the 14th century or 16th century, during Louis XIV for example, vines were everywhere, were planted everywhere in France. Why? Because water was polluted. Everybody grew vines to make wines. The wine was not red, not white, it was rose, sometimes red, sometimes white. Everybody drank wine with water to purify the polluted water. Wine was a beverage, no more.
But slowly, the kings, the princes, the noblesse, they had to honor their guests in their castles, and they tried to find the best wines somewhere. And eventually it appears, to the noblesse, that the best wines come every year from certain parts of Europe, of Hungary, of France. And that is the terroir. It is not understandable. It's empirical. You know, that's my explanation. It's the empirical explanation of terroir. The great wines come from terroir, it's historic.
It's very difficult to give a scientific explanation of this. And now, people want to have an explanation. It's very difficult. We are on the way to having many scientists working on the terroir and they want to give an understanding of it. And I hope that it's not possible to explain.
Drane. Does that mean you are wary of viewing winemaking too much into a science, of seeing it strictly as a series of chemical processes?
Perrin: No, no. We are talking about terroir. I am an enologist. I want to understand the problems of winemaking. But terroir is terroir, it's historic. I am sure that it is possible to find some other great terroir in the world, like in France, or in Tokay, etc...I am sure that in one century, we will be able to find a terroir or two, or three, or hundreds of terroirs in California, in Australia. But they have to make the proof. Terroir is a special soil, under special climate/weather, with a special guy and a family during one hundred years. They develop some microorganism in the soils because they grow the vines, they work there, they find the right cépage for the right soils. Terroir is the work of a family on a very small part of the world. You understand what I mean? That's terroir.
Drane: It's said that you and your brother belong to a very small number of Rhone producers who can make good wines in a bad vintage. Is what you described above the key to this success?
Perrin: It's not difficult. You can make good wine every year if you have old vines and low crop. It's not difficult. And of course, it's absolutely necessary not to have financial problems. To make good wine, you must make money. If a particular tank of wine in a given year is not good, you must sell it, not bottle it. So old vines, low crop, and enough money.
Drane: What made you decide to make the 100% Vielles Vignes Rousanne?
Also, what longevity do you expect for it; what sort of cellar time do you recommend for this wine?
Perrin: In a certain part of the Rhone Valley, there was no way to produce white wines. One-hundred percent of production was red. Sixty-five years ago, my grandfather grew Rousanne grapes, four hectares. And my father was covinced that Rousanne grapes were good. My brother and myself saw that, with these 40 year old vines, the wines were so good, that we decided to make a 100% cuvee. In terms of vines, the problem is that to have proof, we have to wait no less than 20 years. If you choose a cépage, you have to wait 20 years to have proof.
The right age really depends on food. The 100% Rousanne is good two or three years after harvest as an apperatif, or with white chicken, or fish, of course. And after 10 years, you can have it with bisque d'hommard or foie gras. So we have some samples of the first 100% Rousanne my father made in '69, and that's good. It's different. Ça depend de cuisine.
Drane: Robert Parker has written "Given the eccentricities of Mourvedre, it is unlikely that anyone other than the adventurous or the passionately obsessed will make use of Mourvedre." Yet at Beaucastel, you are known for your championing of it. Could you describe the importance of Mourvedre and your commitment to it?
Perrin: Okay. First of all, we don't decrease the percent of Grenache (30%) or Mourvedre. We decrease the percent of Syrah, from 10 to 5%. And we replace it with Counoise. Mourvedre is again something that was planted, or replanted, by my grandfather.
My feeling is that the great wines come when a particular cépage must struggle to ripen, then you make good wine. For instance, Syrah grapes, in the Northern part of the Rhone Valley, is just the limit, the North limit, for the maturation of the Syrah. And Mourvedre comes from the Mediterranean Sea, you know, from Bandol. It's warmer in Bandol. Chateaneuf de Pape is the extreme limit for the maturation of Mourvedre, and making good wine. All over the world, I travel, and in my taste, the great wines come from the limit of the possibility of maturing.
You know, one more example of the empirical way in the wine business: my grandfather grew Mourvedre, re-planted Mourvedre. He was right, but he didn't know that. Now I know that. I have to make the choice for my children. That's the difficulty of our business.
Drane. Actually my next question was going to be about how little Counoise is grown in Southern Rhone because it's viewed as a capricious grape. What is the importance of Counoise now for Ch. Beaucastel?
Perrin: Okay, good question again. Counoise is a very old varietal in Chateauneuf de Pape. You know the Rhone River was formerly, 100 years ago, during the invasion, was the natural way to travel through Europe. After many civilizations travelled via the Rhone River, they left many grape varietals, like Counoise, Mourvedre, Syrah, and so on-thousands of different varietals. So, after 100 years, we've kept only 13 in Chateauneuf de Pape. You know, we've had a choice: 13. And we are alone in my family, in being sure, to think, that Counoise will be one of the best grapes in Chateauneuf de Pape.
So we've replaced the Syrah, which is to my mind more a Northern varietal, with Counoise. And Counoise is interesting because the color is very nice, like Syrah. The body is so big, so intense, the flavor is so intense, that I like it.
Why did I change varietals? Because I don't like the vegetal taste of Syrah in the Southern part of the Rhone Valley. This vegetal taste does not exist in the North. The soil is different. To my mind, Syrah is not the right grape in the Southern Rhone. So we are now producing 10% of Counoise.
Drane: I'm curious: at Chateau Beaucastel, you and your brother have been described as being "in the dissident camp" in terms of your practices, being the champions of difficult varietals, in your adherence to organic practices, and so on. Your robust sense of innovation and the distinct individual philosophy-- where does this come from, do you think? What part of your upbringing created that? And do you and your brother share that equally.
Perrin: Okay...that's very personal, you know? Yeah, uh, yeah, yeah....I don't know. Ah...good question...again. Phew...uh..I don't know. My region, compared with Burgundy or Bordeaux, is new. It's new, in terms of wine, wine philosophy, in terms of making wine. Everything is open. In each region, you have some people who want to... be able to create. I don't know. It's difficult...My father was like that. We tried first to make good wines, we don't try to make any politics, no compromise. We are not involved in the Commité Interprofessionelle des Cotes de Rhone, the syndicate of growers, vintners, and so on.We are not involved in this. We are totally...My brother and myself, we have a good character [laughs] and we have a philosophy and that's it! And either you want it or you don't. If you want, okay, if you don't want, okay. Difficult question...the most difficult question.
Drane: Could you tell me the story behind the Hommage à J. Perrin. Is this, as the name implies, a wine in the style that your father would have loved most? And will you always continue to make it in auspicious vintages?
Perrin: Yeah, sure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. In fact, my brother and me, we in the scheme of Beaucastel, we do nothing. My father made the choice before us. Made the good choice before us. And we do nothing. Only explain what they did before us. We do nothing.
So it was necessary to make the wine, Hommage à Jacques Perrin, as my father wanted to do. And we produced it in 1989, '90, and we bottled last week the '94, but the quantity is very, very low. We produced 2955 bottles. Nothing. Nothing! We hope, and I think we can-- we hope to produce '95 too.
Drane: How would you describe the development that has taken place since your father passed away. In what way have you preserved tradition, but also taken things in your own way, with your own distinct stamp?
Perrin: My father explained to us during his life the philosophy of wines, and we were young. But we really understood the philosophy of terroir and of winemaking, of good wines, and the biological methods. We respect this, we respect family and the process of family.
But because we are two brothers, and because I have 3 boys and a girl, and because my brother Francois has 3 boys, we have tried to develop some additional wine business. It's the reason behind the Vielle Ferme. It's the reason behind our venture in the US. You know, we have to protect Chateau Beaucastel. Because in France, after 2 or 3 generations, look at Burgundy: you have a half hectare for one cousin, and a quarter hectare to the other cousin. And we don't want that. We want to leave Beaucastel alone. And to do that...today we are two brothers, but after us, there will be six.
We have to develop some other businesses. That's the reason of Vielle Ferme, and of Tablas Creek Vineyard in California.
Drane: That ties into my next question which is maybe a difficult one. How do you balance the growing international demand for your wines with your philosophy of low crop yields, organic practices, crop rotation, and so forth-- since those are all factors that require, in fact, limiting your output? You've stated that the vigneron must remain an artisan. Do you feel that eventually some conflict emerges for you at some point, perhaps?
Perrin: I think it's possible to do. You know, we are in the 21st century, and we have to understand things with the technology we have around us. My feeling is that it's possible to develop in the same philosophy with some more extendable wines...For instance, at La Vielle Ferme, we make a lot of bottles, but it's possible to use the same process. It's possible with technology and with the enologist now. Of course it's possible. And for instance, the problems today are different than 25 years ago....we can explain things to everybody, like today, or through Internet. We have a lot of materials. We are in a new industrial revolution. All things are changing.
Drane: May I ask you one last question? I've been told that the time is almost up. I'm particularily interested in two new developments. Your Perrin Reserve Cote de Rhone: what is the concept behind this wine, and is it particularily targeted to an overseas, perhaps a US, market?
And secondly, could you mention the progress of your joint venture, at Tablas Creek Vineyard, and whether you feel your goals there have been met? And in conjunction with that, how do you view the so-called Rhone Ranger movement in the US?
Perrin: First of all, to address the Perrin Reserve: we now want to market the name of Perrin. Because after Beaucastel and Vielle Ferme, we think that the name of Perrin is well-known, and that's the reason why we want to market it.
The second reason is that the consumer's appreciation of packaging is now different. Twenty years ago, the gold-colored label was rich and interesting to the consumer. Today, they don't want it anymore, they want it to be cleaner. The concept is to create a label with nothing on it, no words, only "Perrin Reserve, Cote du Rhone," and the vintage, no more. It's clean. And the capsule is transparent, to see the cork. Everything must be clean now. No lead. So in my mind, the packaging is two, three, four years for the future. But everything is moving so fast now, that we have to anticipate it. So this is anticipated packaging.
Drane: Do the grapes for those wines come from your own vineyards?
Perrin: From our own vineyards, yes.
Drane: If you might mention a word or two about Tablas Creek?
Perrin: Tablas Creek is the consequence of the confidence that we have in the Rhone grapes. Everybody in Burgundy or in Bordeaux or in Champagne makes joint ventures in California, with Chardonnay and Cabernet Sauvignon, or Pinot. We think that we could be able to make the same with the Rhone grapes. We can do it.
And the people in California and in the world, they don't want any more Cabernet or Chardonnay. We need some other wines. And so we grow Syrah in California, we grow Counoise, we plant Grenache, we grow Mourvedre, and Viognier, Rousanne, Marsanne, and it's really interesting because it's a new way.
We want to do like the Burgundy people or the Bordeaux people. We want to get the proof that in the Rhone Valley, we are on the same level. [laughs]
Drane: Are you satisfied with the results so far?
Perrin: Yes, we are. People are asking for Viognier, for Syrah. We are very happy with that, with this project. But we are going slowly, because we don't have enough money, so we try to build slowly. We have a partner, Mr. Robert Hass, our importer since 25 years. It's interesting for us. So, tradition, and at the same time, nouveauté. [laughs] Voila. J'espere qu'etait correct.
(c) Copyright Melanie Campbell Drane, 1997. Zizzyint05.